Problematic Plotlines: Sexualising children

In conjunction with subtly explicit conversation, I was carefully exposed to material that glorified relationships between characters with significant age differences. There was one film in particular he made me watch called The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, the last line of which is: ‘Give me a girl at an impressible age, and she is mine for life’.”

Grace Tame, Australian of the Year and sexual abuse survivor

Note: This piece has been slightly edited since it was first published. There was concern from some readers that it implied that this is a specifically Korean problem or that I was making a comment about Korean culture generally. I apologise to anyone who was upset by the original version of the post and hope the edits are sufficient to allay your concerns. Please let me know if they are not.

In 2017, Korean produced a blockbuster drama that imprinted itself on popular culture like no other drama since My Love From the Star or Boys Overs Flowers. It was a sweeping epic second chance drama about an immortal man looking for redemption. And an equally epic reincarnation romance between an 1000 year old man and a vulnerable, impoverished, orphaned, school-uniform-clad girl child.

Don’t worry, Goblin, your child bride will never grow up

This disturbing ode to paedophilia was called Goblin and it ended with a romantic reunion between our male lead and his reincarnated child bride once again in her school uniform. The visuals itself were not just the main issue with Goblin (Gong Yoo at the time was around 37 and Kim Go-eun around 25 but their characters of course have an unfathomably vast age difference). The “romance” unfolded as a set of creepy Sugar Daddy scenarios involving him offering a vulnerable teen shelter, material goods and grooming statements about her being his foretold Goblin Bride. It was basically a Paedophile’s How To Guide.

Or if that word is too strong for you, let’s just say that Kdrama has an ongoing issue with romanticising liaisons that involve sexualising children and sexualising especially the school uniform. This was particularly stark in the controversial 2020 drama Backstreet Rookie, which not only upskirt highschoolers but had one launching herself at an older man. Although Japan’s sexualising of girls in school uniforms is arguably much worse, Japan is not known for sweeping epic sagas where these romances are portrayed as destined, inevitable or even desirable.

But Goblin is hardly the sole or even the seminal text of a romance between a powerful, wealthy older man and an infantilised and vulnerable child. The trope is rife across Korean dramas in various forms to the point where they might be said to have a paedophilia problem generally. And while this post is about the casual and offhand paedophilia in Korean dramas, it could easily be about incest as well. Yes, I’m still traumatised by Alice and its cohabitation romcom between a man and his mother.

He just really loves his Mum

And who could forget the love triangle in Reply 1997 where a teacher wants to date the school-age younger sister of his dead fiance who is also one of his students. The show not only portrays him as a viable romantic partner but the question of who she chooses is not resolved till the final episode.

Romance, for shows like Goblin, is when a more powerful, older and wealthier male takes care of your material needs in exchange for complete physical and emotional servitude. If I wanted to tiptoe possibly across the fine line I’m treading here, I could argue that these texts themselves are a form of social and cultural grooming.

These dramas are often couched in terms of epic fantasy. The 2021 (still airing) drama, My Roommate is a Gumiho, is the somewhat lightweight version of Goblin. In it, a University student accidentally ingests the Fox Bead of a 1000 year old Gumiho (Nine Tailed Fox). He becomes responsible for her physical wellbeing, moving her into his mansion and setting strict rules of behaviour for her to take care of his ‘seed’. She refers to him as Orishin, a term of deep respect for a much older person. It’s not as bad as Kim Go-eun lisping “I love you, Ajusshi” in a gratingly coy little girl voice in Goblin. But it’s pretty damn close.

In exchange for his care, she gives him her body, love and will, of course, eventually be the vehicle by which he attains his humanity. This will no doubt be of great physical cost to her but she will do it out of love. In later episodes, he takes the role of her University professor and develops a uncontrollable borderline-rapey desire to consume her. Since a relationship between a student and her professor isn’t any less predatory than the one between an ancient powerful being and the teen he’s accidentally impregnated, this was the point at which I decided to drop.

As I should have with the 2016 medical drama Doctors, which begins with the female lead in highschool forming a close mentoring relationship with her teacher. He’s a former Doctor who, we discover, is romantically interested in her and is just waiting for her to grow up. Which of course she eventually does.

I’m so happy to see you again now that you are legal

In many ways though, it’s the casual drive-by paedophilia that is most upsetting. The lisping little girl voices, aegyo and coy childlike responses to skinship and intimacy embedded into almost every text. The otherwise enjoyable 2020 drama (also about a Gumiho) Tale of the Nine-Tailed has periodic romantic flashbacks to the ancient male lead’s ‘first love’ as a 7 year old. These flashbacks to him being a grown man (and mountain God) and her being a precocious child are presented as pink-tinged nostalgia of his romantic past. And of course when he finds his reincarnated love again, she is a similar age.

“Are you her?” he asks a pre-pubescent little girl. Is this child his destined love? Guess he just has to wait till she grows up.

Oh how I miss you, my first love

The irony of course is that Tale of the Nine Tailed is quite an enjoyable drama once you jettison both the creepy paedo flashbacks and the implication that true love is waiting for a man if he just waits for a nearby child to be legal. But it’s hard to get over just how casual the paedophilia is.

Just as it is in the 2013 mega hit My Love From The Star (My Love From Another Star). This Hallyu hit featured a very shippable romance between a star actor and a 600 year old alien waiting in Seoul for the chance to return home. But there was another romance buried in the show, one that’s easy to forget. This is the romance between Kim Soo-hyun’s alien Do Min-joon and his ‘first love’ back in the Joseon era. Of course his modern era love interest Cheon Song-yi (Jun Ji-hyun) is this character’s latest incarnation but that changes little about the optics of flashbacks to her barely-pubescent counterpart and the fact she met him again at a similar age.

When I first watched this show, I assumed this relationship was paternal. Poor naive me

Not to say that Korea is alone in sexualising girl children, normalising large age gaps with older men and younger girls, and promoting childlike behaviour as a desirable quality in a woman. The quote that began this piece comes from Grace Tame, an Australian woman who was manipulated into a relationship with – and subsequently raped by – her middle-aged teacher when she was in highschool. The texts she is referring to are not Korean or even Asian. So it’s definitely not a uniquely Korean issue, although it does present in romance dramas in a particularly romantic way.

Many of the examples in this post are extreme and obvious and they don’t convey the way in which the dynamics of these relationships with their power imbalances, ethical violations and emotional manipulations are threaded through dramas in more subtle and pernicious ways. Even the constant aegyo cry of “Oppa” itself embodies a hierarchical power structure in relationships with the man in the more powerful position. Noona romances are often heralded as such simply because putting the woman in that position of comparative social power is considered subversive.

It’s 2021 and shows with these plotlines are still being made. Goblin remains one of the popular dramas of all time, It would be interesting to know whether audiences are embracing these problematic plotlines or are, like me with Tale of the Nine-Tailed, just putting them aside to enjoy the larger drama. My Love From the Star, for example, is a very enjoyable drama and you can squint and pretend his past relationship was one of paternal care and affection rather than romance. And there is a large body of work that doesn’t have sudden detours into sexualising children.

But when it does happen in a romantic drama it can be jarring. And for now it seems these problematic plotlines are here to stay.


Comments

29 responses to “Problematic Plotlines: Sexualising children”

  1. Thanks for the post, LT! The persistent popularity of shows like these makes me sceptical of whether this is ever going to be addressed in our lifetimes. Also, I take issue with Noona romances for the same reason, tbh, and don’t subscribe to the subversive argument.

    I agree that the Oppa romance is legitimised by patriarchy. But maybe paedophilic relationships are culturally normalised in matriarchies, if they exist in some subcultures? I wouldn’t know. I am aware that certain matrilineal (not quite matriarchal) communities have a borderline reversal of norms / power dynamics, which if stretched to its limits, could substantiate the ‘noona romance as a culturally accepted practice’ argument.

    I also find the issue of consent interesting in such depictions: is consent controlled by the older person or is it determined by gender? I haven’t watched any of the dramas you have listed (because I find the subject extremely discomforting, among other things), but you mentioned in a separate chat that a male character in a Korean drama is unlikely to refuse to date a much younger woman because of the age gap, whereas the age gap is usually the explicit deterrent for a female in noona romances (I’m thinking here of that atrocious Pretty Noona Who Buys Me Food which should never have been made).

    Anyway, plenty of food for thought! Thanks for setting off this conversation. I wish more people in Korea, and heck yeah, Japan, would engage with this publicly and in their mainstream content.

    1. Lee Tennant Avatar
      Lee Tennant

      The Noona romance is an interesting conversation, although when I say ‘subversive’ I don’t mean that their production is subversive. Quite the opposite. I mean that they are portrayals of relationships that are seen are colouring slightly outside of the lines of normal. Age is a factor in these relationships: people in the drama comment on it, the couple gets judged for it, the female lead usually reacts negatively to it. They are romantic dramas about people who fall in love outside of society’s rules.

      In terms of individual plotlines though, some of these are just as problematic. Highschool King of Savvy and Biscuit Teacher and Star Candy are two of the most problematic (the former because he’s only 17 or 18 years old and the latter because she’s his teacher). I know that people reacted badly to the sudden reveal that Dodo’s male lead was a highschool student, although I thankfully never picked that up.

      Pretty Noona was a trainwreck but it was exploring exactly this dynamic. That even if the couple was only two years apart and both adults, that their bucking of social rules would lead to people reacting angrily. The writer and producer had more success with this theme I think in One Spring Night, which portrayed the equally subversive and equally non-problematic romance between a woman and a single father.

  2. EXCELLENT article, thanks for taking the time to articulate so well about this very disturbing fixation in K Dramas. I hate the “kindergarten kismet” plot device for this reason too. It’s interesting that many of the Dramas you cite also involve variations of teacher-student romances, a genre that Japan can’t seem to get enough of and are troubling enough between adults because of the power imbalance, but just indescribably ugh when the junior partner is barely legal – or not even legal, yet. As for noona romance, if the characters are both fully adult and there’s no power/hierarchical issues, then I have no problem with that – The TW Drama My Queen did an exceptional job with tihs storyline, much better than its enervated K remake “Witch’s Romance”.

  3. Pavana Manjunath Avatar
    Pavana Manjunath

    Humans., have certain stages in life.. Childhood ., adulthood and old age.. So it has its own responsibilities at each stages.. Whether you except or not.., so whr do u expect Love to space in..
    I know K dramas are getting expected all over da world with in short periods of time, der might be some reason for it r8, like people can just compare themselves with some instance., well mythical dramas R just mythical.., y do anyone want to put practical research on it.. So just let go.. Just Don’t sob… 😊

    1. I appreciate the time taken and respect your opinion, still I think there is far more to be said about this. First, pedophilia as referred here many times does not constitute the act of most cases feeling interest in someone barely below what we consider legal. If a woman of 18 wants to date someone who are we to interfere. The female lead on goblin was already 19 when she meets the goblin and she is the one to pursue him. She is the one that basically makes him fall in live and pursues him. So why is it bad for a woman to pursue a mythical being? This is fiction for starters, the guy is a god, what else can he do? Mate with another god? He never grooms her. In my live from the stars he does not her as a child in her past life but never showed love to her as a man. He is an alien and well for all we know he doesnt even know human age and social construct. Child’s at the time got even engaged and were married far younger. He always portrayed caring as an older brother to him. What you mean to say is that if I met someone as a minor and they are an adult, and then meet them after I am legal and keep showing interest and pursue them, it is wrong for them to respond? It really sounds far fetched to take examples in mythical and fantasy stories where the main character is a god, diety or some creature. In webtoons I would even say it’s the opposite? Ussually it’s a female who is reincarnated and well she ends up with the much mentally younger male lead… any problem? No. Its fiction. I apologize for the comment and all and once more respect your opinion but honestly I dont see s problem in fictions were they are not really sexualizing a child.

  4. I don’t know about other stories, but the goblin, nine-tailed fox, aliens etc are mythical creatures and their aging is quite different from humans. So, we can’t exactly say it’s pedophilia when we talk about romance between a human and these mythical creatures. Infact for goblin and the nine-tailed fox, they have stopped aging physically all together. And the only difference between them and a human of their physical age is that they have acquired more knowledge and maturity over the years they lived on earth. This is just my take on these stories. Anyone can interpret a story as a deem fit. I hope this doesn’t create misunderstanding. I am so against pedophilia.

  5. While watching goblin the same thought came across my mind that how can the male lead is so old and the female lead being a school girl fell in love with that ahjussi because she needed materialistic support from him. Although the storyline and drama was excellent but still the age gap was huge.. thanks for this article

    1. The girl is 19. The age of consent in South Korea is 16! They raised it from 13 to 16. It was never implied that he wanted to have sexual relationships with her in like 80% of the drama until she like grew up to be like what in her 30s? And even so we see that it is HER that initiates it.

      This is a fantasy plot and him providing for her is just what the plot is about – if anything this was written by a WOMAN.
      Don’t call the actor a pedo and critize the writer if you got a problem instead!!

  6. Thanks for this article. So many times sexual abuse is called by another name, rationalised and normalised, and the grooming process starts “innocently”. So much so that people like Grace Tame did not notice how wrong it was when she was exposed to movies with paedophilic subtext. This is what exactly happens to many sa survivors. Looking back, we are shocked. How did we miss it. But if we think really carefully, something in us stirred which said, “Nonononono…. this is not ok.” Thanks for putting this stirring into words.

  7. I think that the issue of a minor dating an adult is quite a different matter from a relationship between two consenting adults. In the second case, frankly, I don’t see any problem with an age gap, no matter who is the older party -no double standard for me there-. I do see a problem (in terms of ageism and sexism) with a society where people would feel entitled -operating under the delusion that somehow they know better than the individuals involved, and that they are in any position of moral authority- to comment on such a relationship between two people that are not hurting anyone. No, those people most definitely do not know better. Put another way: a world where the relationship between President Macron and his first lady is not commented upon by anyone would be a much better world.

    In both Backstreet Rookie (where I believe the girl was not in school, but was working) and Goblin, both parties are above the age of majority, so I don’t think it is appropriate to talk about this in the same vein a pedophilia. I feel about these the same way as I feel about Secret Love Affair, where, incidentally, the ML is entirely dependent, for his livelihood, on being able to continue studying music in a context where FL has absolute power over his life and could ruin him at any moment, if we wanted to talk about “power imbalance”… not that that aspect was a problem for me at all, again, they were both consenting adults and he was not coerced in any way.

    My general take on age gap romances is that as long as both parties are legal adults, it’s really no one’s business. It seems to me extremely patronizing to deny an adult’s agency and infantilize them. I don’t really want to go into a tirade about ageism and sexism, or summon President Macron from the ether, but I don’t know what hick from what backwater would think they would be entitled to comment on what goes on between consenting adults. Again, I should point out that there are plenty of real life couples with similar age gaps (leaving aside the aforementioned Frenchman, Mr. Sunshine’s ML and his wife are a Korean couple that comes to mind).

    I do love Noona romances, and frankly, while the topic of age is often raised (but certainly not always), the implication is clearly that what goes on between consenting adult shouldn’t be anyone’s business. There might be practical considerations around having children, for example, but then again, maybe ML doesn’t care about having kids of their own, and in any case one of them could have been infertile anyway. Barring that, I don’t really see any problem whatsoever. And frankly, I don’t really see that as a problem either (there is adoption, there are other medical solutions, and some people just don’t want kids).

    In other words, the message in Noona romances is that society’s perception shouldn’t matter, and that it is ridiculous to let other people’s opinion dictate something as important as who you wish to have a relationship with. Frankly, in recent years I do see more and more Noona romances where the age gap does not get commented on at all (I don’t think that in Forecasting Love And Weather it was), and I do think that it would be a definite improvement for society if we lived in a world where nobody felt the need to bring out a calculator and analyze whether the ages of the partners in a couple fit their completely arbitrary standards.

    1. Actually, on the topic of Mr. Macron, I just realized that he and his wife started dating when he was 16, and therefore did not fit neatly into the “relationship between consenting adults” framework mentioned above. I feel that as far as the part of the criticism of the relationship that merely comes from the fact that she is 25 years older than him -and there certainly was criticism aimed specifically at the fact that she is much older, not at when the relationship started-, then the rest of the argument holds. I will table the bit about him being 16 when the relationship begun because it is out of scope of the “relationship between consenting adults” critique.

    2. Whatever the case might be, I don’t think that it is serious to talk about “grooming” in the context of relationships between consenting adults, or to refer to adults as “children”: it’s patronizing and infantilizing.

    3. I mean, I guess that if we were talking about a relationship where one individual is gradually coerced into accepting abuse, and we refer to that as grooming, then it could also happen between adults, but then it wouldn’t really be about their age, or even the age gap between them, it would be just about a manipulative relationship where one party is being essentially brainwashed into accepting abuse. I don’t think that this is the sense in which the article talked about grooming. If we are only talking about there being an age gap, but the relationship being between two consenting adults, then in the absence of any such threat, coercion or brainwashing (i.e. the relationship is between *consenting* adults) it simply doesn’t make sense to use the term grooming. If, on the other hand, such coercion or brainwashing was present, as would for example be the case for sexual predators operating in the context of sects, such as what happened with the Smallville cast, then the coercitive behavior would be the issue, not the respective ages of the adults involved (again, it would be different in the case of a minor who legally cannot consent).

    4. Though, I think that the fact that the term “grooming” could also be used to describe the manipulation, brainwashing and coercion with which a sexual predator could prey on adults, for example in the context of a sect like the one in Smallville.

      I don’t think that this is in contrast with my previous observation that it does not make sense to use the term grooming when talking about *consenting* adults. The key word there is “consenting” adults, which implies we are talking about a consensual relationship, not by someone being threatened or brainwashed by a predatory guru in some strange cult.

      This is a different situation than what was discussed in the post: the predatory guru’s and their adult victims’ ages are not the issue here, for that matter they could be groomed even if they were the same age or older (taking advantage of a disabled or old person). When discussing the coercion or brainwashing of adult victims, the coercitive or brainwashing behavior would be the issue, not the respective ages of the adults involved (again, it would be different in the case of a minor who legally cannot consent).

  8. I guess that the main problem I have is with the mixing of two quite different things and the usage of the word “children” to refer to both minors and adults. An adult is not a child, by definition. A relationship between an adult and a minor is quite different from a relationship between two consenting adults. The first is a problem, the second is very much not.

    To repeat: if someone is legally an adult, they are, by definition, not a child. As such, I do think that it is paternalistic and patronizing to concern-troll from a position of faux moral superiority, pretending to know what would be good for them based on some completely made up, arbitrary standard of what the ideal difference in age between two people is supposed to be.

    The reality of the situation is they are merely bothering two people that are not harming anyone and that are in a much better position to determine whether they want to be in a relationship. Any gossip-monger feeling the need to opine would be well served by showing some epistemic humility.

    Now, I must admit that in the case of Goblin I would have been more comfortable had she been out of high school, but if we reflect about the situation logically:

    In terms of the drama, the situation is absolutely analogous to the one in Twilight where a high school student becomes involved with an incredibly ancient supernatural being. The mere fact that in Twilight said supernatural being also poses as a high school student is obviously irrelevant -the guy is hundreds of years old, the school principals’ great grandfather would have a smaller age gap with his partner than he does-.

    In terms of the actors in real life, they even ended up dating for real… I really feel that this should really have been the nail in the coffin of such a line of argument: the actress herself, clearly an adult more than old enough to make her own decisions about who she should sleep with, was attracted enough by her co-star to have a relationship with him. I don’t see where anyone watching gets the chutzpah to then comment on their personal life as if they were in any way entitled to have an opinion on who two consenting adults choose to date.

    Bottom line, it’s one thing to have personal preferences and biases, it’s quite another to make the mistake of believing they have any relevance to how consenting adults decide to live their lives, or to make a definite statement about the ethics of a relationship between said consenting adults.

    The only ethically relevant question here, given that, again, no children are involved, only consenting adults, is whether by being in a relationship they are hurting anyone (not counting, obviously, the gossip-mongers or anyone that would want to date them instead, given that their opinion shouldn’t have any bearing on their lives).

    If the answer is no, then there is simply nothing immoral about the aforementioned relationship between consenting adults. Said consenting adults are in the best position to judge if they themselves are happy with the relationship or not, and by definition they are in the best position to judge their own thoughts and feelings, indeed they are the only person that can know definitely what goes through their own minds.

    If the answer is yes and there is some coercive behavior going on then the issue would be quite different, because it would not be about the age gap, i.e. the “adult” part of “consenting adult”, but about the “consent” part, i.e. one of the two would be in the relationship not out of their own will, but because they were threatened into doing so. But that would be an issue even if they were exactly the same age.

    Frankly, I continue to find online discussions on the topic completely appalling in the sheer presumption that people have in openly sharing their own biases in a manner they wouldn’t feel comfortable sharing about any other topic: if someone is not attracted to someone of the same gender, or someone above a certain weight, they would never turn that personal bias into an ethical judgment or use it to shame people, and for good reason (in fact, in terms of the weight, I don’t know that I wouldn’t be hesitant to mention that in public for fear of shaming someone).

    1. Samantha’s relationship with her young lover in Sex and the City was basically the best part of the show for me. Again, I think that if there is a bias here the way to correct it is to move towards a world where people are more open minded and let consenting adults date and sleep with whomever they want. Basically, take NY or LA and generalize the attitude across every gender. Let everyone do what they want as long as it’s between consenting adults and it’s not hurting anyone else. Seems common sense to me.

      I must admit that I never saw Goblin, but I thought that the age gap was something that had been commented on. Again, if we were rational, the same argument should have been made about Twilight (given that the centuries old vampire posing as a high school student does not make him in any way closer to his partner’s age). And if it’s an issue with the actual actors, the fact that they actually dated should pretty much shut down any remaining argument: if as consenting adults they were perfectly okay with the relationship, who is anyone to interfere and tell them how to live their lives? In fact, from the battle for female emancipation to the fight for gay rights and to the sexual revolution, all battles won over bigots that thought knew better, the whole point has been to not tell consenting adults how they should live their lives, and let them free to live their lives and pursue their happiness as they saw fit, as long as they didn’t hurt anyone else.

    2. I think that, bottom line, no matter the hangups and pet peeves mentioned above, it is fundamentally unserious to talk about “grooming” in the context of a relationship between consenting adults, or to refer to or treat such adults as children. It is demeaning and infantilising, not to mention paternalistic and patronizing. It is fundamentally different from a relationship between an adult and a minor.

    3. I guess that the key word when discussing this in the context of consenting adults is the term “consenting”. So, I guess that the term “grooming” could be use in the context of adults if we were talking about a cult leader threatening, coercing or brainwashing the members of a cult, like in the Smallville sex cult case. Though there we would be talking about something quite different from the topic of the post, because it wouldn’t be about the perpetrator and their adult victim’s respective age (indeed, I could imagine situations where the people being taken advantage of were disabled, or older, up to elderly being manipulated). The perp could even be the same age or younger than their adult victims, the key concept here wouldn’t be their age but the coercion or brainwashing. So, the claim that it does not make sense to talk about grooming in the context of “consenting” adults still holds: if said adult happens to be brainwashed into some strange sex cult and preyed upon by a predatory guru, then that is the issue, not their age (this would be different in the case of a minor who legally cannot consent). This is a different issue from the one discussed in the post though.

    4. The bottom line is that both the case of a minor that cannot consent and a predatory guru brainwashing and grooming adult victims in a sex cult are illegal behaviors. Consensual relationships between consenting adults (repetition was intentional to stress the point), for obvious reasons, are not. Seems pretty clear to me: minors who cannot consent by definition cannot have a consensual relationship; adult victims that are “groomed” in the sense of being threatened, coerced or brainwashed by some weird predatory cult leader, or analogous situation, are another matter, where the issue is not the perp and adult victim’s age, but the threats, coercion and brainwashing, so, again, not consensual; consenting adults in a consensual relationship are a whole other matter: consenting adults have every right to freely choose what to do with their lives, and it’s appalling that anyone would think they would be entitled to dictate which other consenting adult said consenting adults should date or sleep with.

  9. Okay, I’ll admit that I didn’t really like the fact that FL was in high school in Goblin. I don’t feel it was about the age (she was legally an adult) and certainly not the age gap (I don’t care what consenting adults get up to), but more about the fight that she was in high school. I do think that the fact that she is the one to pursue him made it more tolerable, though. However, if I was to be rational, I would have to admit that ethically this wouldn’t really change the situation with respect to something like Twilight where the ancient being is posing as a high school student.

    If the FL was in college, I really wouldn’t have a problem with it, with the exception of a situation where the ML was her professor. Then again, that wouldn’t really be about their age or age gap, but about potential conflicts of interest. I was not bothered by Backstreet Rookie despite them working together and am other office romances.

    Maybe I see the difference in college as more highlighted, in the same way it bothers me less than the high school part. Again, I don’t know if I would make a definite statement about the morality of the situation, because then I went ahead and enjoyed Secret Love Affair, where the same issues applied and they didn’t bother me.

    All in all, let’s say that I wouldn’t exactly recommend this as a dating pool in real life, or want it to become a rampant phenomenon, but thinking about it from the perspective of who is this hurting, as long as it’s between consenting adults and nothing “wrong” happens that is not age related (such as favoritism on the job, or coercion using firing or evaluating of the performance to threaten the other party, which would have been an issue regardless), I don’t think I can claim that there is an actual problem.

    I think that when the relationship actually develops does matter, meaning that someone having a crush on somebody else and then the relationship developing later on when they are both consenting adults is, fundamentally, a different matter than a relationship between an adult an a minor. I think that something that could help would be to address the issue explicitly and mention the shift in perspective required to reassess the relationship.

    At the same time, I also think that it would not be fair to continue treating an adult as if they were a child. Again, I was unbothered by this in Secret Love Affair, so I know that it is not a deal breaker in dramas, though it’s hard to say whether this is due to other factors, such as the leads’ chemistry, changing the perception.

    But, again, I think that the bottom line, ethically, should be if someone is harmed, and if both individuals are capable of consent, which consenting adults by definition are.

    1. As an additional example, in Love from the Stars, the age gap between the protagonists didn’t bother me in the least, because FL was a grown actress. In terms of the historical scene, I do think that some expectation setting should be applied, and I see it as equivalent to adjusting expectations when watching, say, Game of Thrones, or Marco Polo. That’s my rationalization, anyway.

      To be honest, these are all quite “borderline” cases, and one might find nuances on all sides. Which is why as a society we have decided to set down rules, and in general the guiding directive as far as I am concerned is that I don’t concern myself with what happens between consenting adults, assuming that they know better how to live their own lives.

      I must say that once we exit the school and student/teacher area (about which I talked about above, and where I don’t really know whether it makes sense to make a definite statement… if they had met in the past, do I think it’s still inappropriate if the relationship itself develops in the future? What if one of the two parties moves to a different position and there is no conflict of interest anymore? So I don’t really know that they have to do with the age per say… and, again, I struggle because in Secret Love Affair I really wasn’t bothered by this aspect, despite him being a music student and her school… so I guess that “consenting adults” is my overall standard), I do basically feel no problem whatsoever with age gaps.

    2. Despite the caveats mentioned above, I do believe that, in all cases, it does not make sense to refer to a consensual relationship between two adults as “grooming”, or to treat or refer to an adult as a child. It is demeaning, it denies them agency, it is patronizing and delusional to the extent that it is done in the mistaken conviction of having the right or moral authority of telling legal adults how to live their lives (or for that matter, of having the ability to determine what would be good for them better than the adults in question themselves can).

    3. To be more precise, “grooming” could be used to describe a behavior that was very much not the one tackled in this post, of someone coercing or brainwashing adult victims, such as in the Smallville sex cult case. This is not in contrast with the notion that it is absurd to characterize a relationship between *consenting* (key word: consenting) adults as grooming. The issue with the predatory cult leader case is not the respective age of the perp and their adult victims, but the fact that they had been threatened, coerced or brainwashed. This is a different situation from one involving a minor who cannot consent. I mentioned it above as well, but just to be clear, the difference is that a minor who cannot consent cannot, by definition, be in a consensual relationship. An adult that can, in principle, consent, can be in a consensual relationship. So the question then becomes whether they have been coerced or brainwashed, and not about their age.

    4. I should point out that both an adult having a relationship with a minor that cannot consent and a predator coercing and brainwashing adult victims are illegal behaviors, while two consenting adults deciding to date and have sex is not, and is not anyone’s business.

  10. I do believe that, more than the age, FL being in high school (despite being legally an adult) is what I would have preferred to see change: to be honest, I wouldn’t really have had an issue had she been in college. To a lesser extent, this applies to college if there is a conflict of interest such as one of the two being the other’s professor, but I don’t really think that has to do with age, per say. And I was absolutely unbothered about it in Secret Love Affair, so I don’t know whether I can consider this a hard and fast rule.

    I do think that, rationally speaking, in Goblin the situation is not any different than, say, in Twilight: the fact that there the vampire plays the role of a high school student doesn’t really change their age. I also do think that when the relationship develops matters: if they met in the past, but the relationship develops when they are all consenting adults, then the situation is quite different between a relationship between a minor and an adult. And it is also true that I do think it would be unfair and patronizing to continue to treat an adult as if they were a child.

    1. I guess that one recent example where I was not too bothered by the fact that he was working while she was in school would be Twenty Five Twenty One. I mean, I guess that it is one of those situations where I don’t think I would prefer a society where this happened ubiquitously, but where I fall back to the standard “Is this between consenting adults? Then there is no problem”, rather than torture myself about the nuances of relationship between fictional characters (in a way that I wouldn’t ever bother butting in in the relationship of consenting adults IRL). I do think, as a general point, that besides the highschool and college prof thing mentioned above (where, again, just to show that humans are complicated, I didn’t feel bothered at all by the relationship in Secret Love Affair that developed *while ML was a music student*… again, more than age, it’s about a potential conflict of interest there, and I guess I evaluate it in the context of the overall situation: do they take steps to prevent such a conflict of interest? Is the conflict of interest manifesting in actual favoritism, or is it merely something that is not being disclosed and therefore hurting the credibility of the organization? Again, I don’t think that it has to do with the relationship and the age per say), if we are talking about consenting adults in basically any circumstance I wouldn’t even come close to being bothered by it.

    2. The above caveats, it should be pointed out, have no bearing on, and do not change the fact, that it is completely absurd to refer to or treat adults as children, or to use the term “grooming” to describe a relationship between consenting adults.

    3. The “grooming” term using to indicate a situation where a predator brainwashes adult victims, such as in the Smallville sex cult case, is different from the usage of the term mentioned in the post, and imho it does not make sense to mash the two together. Note that this usage of the terms is not in conflict with the notion that it does not make any sense to characterize a relationship between consenting adults as “grooming”, the key word there being “consenting”. As I have alluded to above, the case of a minor legally unable to give consent is a separate case: there, by definition, there cannot be a consensual relationship, whereas adults can consent, so the issue is then not the ages of the adult victims and the perpetrator, but rather the presence of threats, coercion or brainwashing.

    4. Bottom line, an adult in a relationship with a minor that cannot consent, and a predator brainwashing adult victims, are both illegal behavior, while two consenting adults freely choosing to pursue a relationship is not, and is also no ones’ business.

Leave a Reply to Sammy Cancel reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *